国家情报局的凯瑟琳·托宾与观众一起推动政府创新

UntoldContent.com/乐动体育266trainings/Data-StoryTelling-Trings.

成绩单

本集以来自Untold Content和data +Science的数据讲故事培训为动力。乐动体育266乐动体育足球通过学习数据可视化和技术讲故事的最佳实践，将数据转换为强大的可视化故事。无论你是PowerBI还是Tableau的员工——或者只是想更好地交流你的数据——这个研讨会都会激发你去发现数据背后的故事。学习更多在//www.isandstone.com/datastorytelling乐动体育266training/。

凯蒂：(00:00:04)欢迎来到“不为人知的创新故事”，在这里，我们会放大关于洞察力、影响力和创新的不为人知的故事。由未知的内容提供动力。乐动体育足球我是主持人，凯蒂·特劳斯·泰勒。我们今天的嘉宾是凯瑟琳·托宾。她是国家情报总监办公室横向创新部门的主任。她是美国情报界的创新领导者，她领导文化和流程变革，建立一个强大的创新环境。凯瑟琳，我很荣幸你今天能上播客。

凯思莲:(00:00:39)谢谢你！我很激动到这里。

凯蒂：(00:00:41)是什么让你进入了创新领域?如你所知，在你的职业道路上是什么样的指引?

凯思莲:(00:00:48)我一直是个有创造力的人，但正如你所知，创造力和创新之间有很大的区别创造力是一种新的和不寻常的东西，但要成为创新，它必须是有用的。所以对我来说，心态上的巨大转变是在几年前，当我上设计思考的课程时，你知道，我一直试图在我做的每一份工作中混合一些东西，有时有用，有时没用。这太令人沮丧了，你知道，为什么它没起作用?为什么人们不像我一样喜欢这些想法呢?当我上设计思维这门课的时候第一个练习是:老师说，“大家早上好。我想让你为我设计一个钱包。还有什么问题吗?”

凯思莲:(00:01:30)当然，每个人都是“我得到了这一点。这真太了不起了。这将是有史以来最好的钱包。“所以我们必须工作，开始绘制所有这些新功能，以及您知道，想法或图片或钥匙或任何东西。我很兴奋，因为我想买这个钱包，为什么没有人想到它？所以我们的时间起了。我们急切地去了教师等待着我们令人敬畏的想法的赞美。他说，“你们都失败了。”我们就像，“等等，什么？为什么？” And he said, “you were supposed to design a wallet for me. And no one asked me a question. No one asked what I need a wallet to do. No one asked, what’s wrong with my current wallet? No one really cared about me. And I was the hopeless customer.” And it just really hit home that that’s what I’ve been doing wrong all along. You know, it’s not. It wasn’t really innovation. It was just creativity that got lucky. So the real key to innovation is to know who you are designing for and their struggles and what they really need and then empathizing with them and knowing their story almost as well as they do and trying to build for them. And that was just the key to all of it. And I’ve been fusing that into my career ever since. And I’ve been unfortunate to find a group of people in the intelligence community who are also working that way.

凯蒂：(00:02:52)我喜欢这个故事,因为我认为我们所有的人都能体会的感觉有一个伟大的想法或认为是有效的陷入自己的头,如果你愿意,忘记用户体验和合作和获得反馈和构建这些循环过程。我认为讲故事可以给我们一个有趣的开端，让我们能够相互同情，理解我们的利益相关者或消费者的问题或挑战，并针对这些问题进行创新。你能告诉我一些关于讲故事的想法吗，作为一个创新者，你讲故事的方式这些年发生了哪些变化?

凯思莲:(00:03:35)嗯，讲故事，从专业的角度来说，还是很新鲜的。我是说，人类讲故事已经很古老了。我们从一开始就在这么做。作为孩子，我们喜欢故事。下班后，我们读书。我们看电影。我们沉浸在故事中，除了朝九晚五的生活。在很大程度上，这似乎是反故事的沙漠。

凯蒂：(00:03:59)是的。

凯思莲:(00:04:00)因此，它给人惊喜，当我们接近他们，而不是与事实和数据和流程图，而是用一个小故事。但它是如此令人难以置信的效果。一个例子是：我的团队运行一个叫智能，科技伙伴或ISTA程序。其目标是帮助初创企业和小企业的非传统与情报部门的任务需求连接真正新的创新能力。而且，你知道，我的团队运行的程序。我们认为这是相当真棒。但我们想确保它实际上是服务于我们的客户。所以我们想，好吧，可他们甚至找到了吗？难道我们沟通得很好？因此，我们要求我们的实习生谁是不熟悉程序，假装他们是公司的创始人，并希望与情报团队做生意。 So we had them document and basically write the story of their journey to try to do business with ISTA. And, you know, we thought it would be a love story where they did a little research and they found out about us and aren’t this great, happily after. It turned out it was more of a horror story like, you know, when you’re watching that movie and you want to yell at the character, “don’t open the door!” It was like that. We were reading their stories and what they were searching for was wrong and the resources they were reading were not the right ones. And they didn’t understand how things worked. And it was just emotional for us to read because we knew how it was supposed to be. And it was emotional for them because they were so frustrated and so eager and it was just heartbreaking. And so we thought, you know, we know this story because we asked them [unclear wording]. Think of all the people who just run instead. And so it was so impactful and it completely changed how we thought about advertising the program to people. And we shared this. We packaged it as it is, sent it to other government agencies who are running similar programs and said, “hey, guys, this is what’s actually happening [unclear wording].” And everyone sat up and paid attention. And that just goes to show that, like, if we had sent over “best practices for communicating with startups.” Eh, you know, those are helpful, but it wouldn’t really grip people like the story did.

凯蒂：[00:06:26]绝对的。你决定给那份报告起什么标题?你还记得吗?

凯思莲:(00:06:32)这是在我们有朗朗上口的标题之前。我们一直在努力创造吸引人的游戏。我认为这是关于，你知道的，客户寻找情报机构或什么的旅程。

凯蒂：(00:06:46)当然,当然。确定。这是不可思议的。我爱。那些实习生一定觉得在这个过程中他们的声音很重要。

凯思莲:(00:06:55)绝对的。

凯蒂：(00:06:57)你能跟我们说说你和你的团队在中情局工作中最喜欢的创新故事吗?

凯思莲:(00:07:05)好吧，我不再在CIA。我在那里几年了，我现在在Odni。我的意思是，这是一个情报界，我们都非常密切合作。

凯蒂：(00:07:14)如果你真的可以，你能告诉我们一些不熟悉情报界结构的人，你能告诉我们你的办公室，中情局和其他一些你经常合作的主要参与者之间的关系吗?

凯思莲:(00:07:30)确定。情报界包括17个组成部分，其中一些是你在电视上听说过的，比如中央情报局(CIA)、国家安全局(NSA)或联邦调查局(FBI)。有些是较小的，它们通常是内阁级机构的一部分。例如，美国国务院的情报和研究办公室(Office of Intelligence and Research)是情报界的一部分。但它也是国务院的一部分。所以如果你把16个元素加上ODNI，你得到17。ODNI起着协调作用。因此，协调、监督和召集，基本上，当机构、独立的情报机构本身，如中央情报局或国家安全局，是建造卫星、分析图像和编写情报产品的人。相反，ODNI代表整个情报界工作，并真正确保我们在一起工作，发出统一的声音来支持决策者。我认为有一个很好的例子可以说明这一点，那就是人们都很熟悉总统的每日简报。 And what people might not realize is that that is a product that is by ODNI. It includes pieces from all over the intelligence community based on the topic at hand. And people go on rotation from whatever their home agency is to ODNI for a few years and are part of the president’s daily brief team to compile the book and brief it downtown. So it’s kind of that all-star team of people going on rotation from different IC elements to do something on behalf of the community. And then how that works for me and my team is lateral innovation is here to amplify and accelerate innovation and innovators across the intelligence community. So our role is to work with innovators across the community, either advocate. So we often produce training materials such as playbooks on the best way to run a hackathon or how to do a pitch event, working with startups, or how to do storytelling, things like that. These [unclear wording] materials and guidebooks, we also are working on incentives. And so how might we reward people for being innovative? Whether that is an award for great innovations or [unclear wording]. Or also how might we shape the incentive structure to get people to think in terms of balancing innovation and moving quickly with also our security [unclear wording] and incentivizing the lawyers to focus on: “Yes, if” as opposed to “no, because.” That’s kind of the incentive side. And then the implementation side is we’ve noticed that innovation is happening all across the IC. Has been for years and it’s great, but it’s not often carrying across to the different agencies and elements as quickly as it could. So, for example, if the NSA has figured out how to do something, they want to use that product. Right? They want to use it for missions, which is wonderful. But who at NSA would want to share it with the CIA or FBI? So we’ll work with NSA, package up what we can, document the lessons learned, and then make it more of a franchise opportunity for other agencies to pick up and adjust and implement it as meets their mission needs rather than starting from scratch.

凯蒂：(00:11:24)太棒了。非常感谢。这为协作和创新的所有形式，以及跨越整个社区的方式，增加了很多背景。谢谢你！这是完美的。这是我们团队非常兴奋的事情。大约一年前，你和一些同事一起创建了一个小组，名为“寻求真相，说出真相:间谍讲故事的指南”。你能跟我们多说一点吗?

凯思莲:(00:11:51)这太棒了。这是一个如此伟大的经历。这是2019年3月在西南互动会议上南部的一块小组。如果你没有机会参加，我强烈推荐它。来自世界各地的人们聚集在一起一周，专注于创新，设计，技术。共享许多新想法，您可以从工业和政府和学术界的人们听取人口。还有很多非常有趣的混搭和合作和免费食物，这很好。因此，我在一个小组上与国家情报和中央情报局局长办公室有其他几名IC官员。我们都对讲故事和我们的角色有不同的接受。有一个人是几个高级领导人的演讲者，以及IC的平等机会和多样性的人，以及我们在ODNI的副透明官员，然后自己。所以我们每个人都谈到了讲故事如何对我们的角色有用。 So the speechwriter talked about how storytelling can help paint a really compelling picture and the importance and the balance of not using emotion to manipulate. So what… how do you use enough emotion that the audience understands what you’re trying to do without going overboard and really not playing fair? So he talked about how he does that. The head of equal opportunity and diversity talked about, from her perspective, storytelling helps us bring our whole selves to work. And that is so key to diversity and inclusion. And how the IC really values, diversity and inclusion. That’s one of our core values. And so how we are really highlighting the stories of our vast diversity of officers and understanding not just their work selves, but full selves. And that way we can appreciate each other. And of course, for me, picking right up on that diversity is so important [unclear wording] because all of those perspectives and solutions from very different places and metaphors and analogous worlds. So we need people who bring their full selves and their full array of experiences to work. And so the transparency officer was talking about how storytelling helps bring transparency and it really opens the black box. The intelligence community is secretive for a reason, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have a duty to explain what we do and to show what we can with the American public. And so he talked about how rather than just sending out declassified information in structure format and letting people do what they want. How do you tell the stories of what the intelligence community is doing so that it’s actually a compelling and understandable package for the public? And so he shared, for example, some videos from the wonderful website, intelligence.gov, I highly recommend people check that out, which features stories of current and historical intelligence officers. And then from my perspective, I was talking about storytelling and innovation and how we use storytelling, whether that to get buy in from leadership when we’re seeking resources to pursue a project or to get audiences and customers or would be customers to understand their need to change their behavior and also how we’re teaching storytelling as a part of the core curriculum for innovators across the community.

凯蒂：(00:15:49)这是美妙的。我认为你实际上还在中央情报局内部举办过一次活动，你基本上是在培训人们，我们称之为Untold，“创新讲故事”，对吧?

凯思莲:[00:16:00]我们所做的。我们所做的。这是几年前的事了。这是一个很好的例子，说明情报机构的思路非常广泛。所以，这是一个广泛的人，不仅仅是一个指定的创新办公室，而是整个机构的志愿者，他们举办了这个活动，它包括真实的故事，以及教人们如何磨练手艺。所以人们谈论不同的故事原型，所以你有英雄的旅程。你有爱情故事。你有复仇的故事。以及什么时候使用，以及如何构思你的故事，如何练习你的故事……我们分发了这些练习册，人们可以用这些练习册来开始一些简单的事情，比如发布你名字的故事。这是一个很好的打破僵局的方法，能让人们养成讲故事的习惯，因为讲故事可能会很可怕。 And also some great infographics about why stories are important and how they work. And we were able to release those to the public at South by Southwest and share those with you for the show notes as well.

凯蒂：(00:17:03)是的，我会链接 - 它真的令人难以置信。它基本上是一个名为“创新故事工艺”的工作簿。它让我想起了我们在我们的创新讲故事培训中涵盖的一些元素。乐动体育266所以我认为这是一个非常精彩的资源。而且我很感激你能够得到那种清除，以便我们可以与倾听者分享。但我肯定会链接那个工作簿。然后还有一个非常棒的，基本上，那些叫做什么？像互动词泡泡图像一样？

凯思莲:(00:17:33)是的，它就像一幅纸格式的图形笔记壁画。

凯蒂：[00:17:35]是的。是的。是的。我猜这也是那次谈话的结果。

凯思莲:(00:17:41)是的。我的一位非常有才华的同事放在一起，我们用它作为一种不断很大的讲义，教这样的研讨会时。有此话题的专题研讨会将此起彼伏全年这么多的兴趣。

凯蒂：(00:17:58)我太喜欢了。这些都是很棒的资源，一定要去看看。我认为。让我们更深入一点，因为思考一种文化是如此迷人。你知道，创新社区实际上是建立了一种文化，就像你说的，保密，隐私，试图尽可能地保密，你知道，保护美国人民，当然，也保护他们自己。请告诉我们，情报界对这个创新故事培训的反应。乐动体育266

凯思莲:(00:18:31)这绝对是一个警钟的人，因为它是从我们一直在训练做如此不同。要知道，文化真的把真理和事实。还有的在原来的总部在美国中央情报局建立在墙上的报价。它说，“你将看到真理，真理必自由设置你的。”这是所有关于了解真相。而当分析师加盟，无论他们是在什么机构，他们通过在如何做适当的研究培训多月，如何引用您的来源，如何发现误传，该怎么做结构分析技术，怎么样，你知道乐动体育266，基本上除去从分析情感。现在，我们来了有故事。所以这当然令人惊讶的人，有时我们得到的是有点怀疑的，还有是人谁是创新往往是通才谁是非常有创意，谁在各种各样[不清楚措辞]已经奏效。所以我们不是谁花了20年某个话题的分析师。所以，当我们进来并试图工作的人谁是专家，我们有时会想问题，你怎么更好知道吗？ You haven’t been doing this job for 20 years. And I have. And so that’s a part of the reason why stories are so important. [Unclear wording], doing our interviews with people and really developing empathy and understanding what people’s struggles are, we’re able to compellingly convey the challenges that are afoot and see that system and that whole ecosystem of what’s going on. So we can explain to someone that, you know, here’s the name of an analyst and say here is their day to day job. And here’s why it is expensive and difficult and risky and might not yield the best answer and really get people to think, oh, I have not experienced that. I didn’t see it that way. But you’re right. That’s a real problem. [Unclear wording.] So we use stories as kind of a call to action and to build credibility, because while the innovators might not have 20 years of experience on a certain topic, we do know how to do interviews, and understand the whole system around it. So we do have data to back up whatever it is we’re doing.

凯蒂：[00:20:54]是的。我很喜欢你壁画里的一句话是罗伯特·麦基说的。你说"发生的都是事实"我们对它的看法就是真理。”当你被要求讲一个故事的时候，这是一个很大的挑战，所以我们中的很多人有点像回到了我们的童年时代，当我们，你知道，如果我们讲故事，被指责说谎，你知道，“你只是在讲故事。”所以我认为当我们在追求真理和试图总是表示数据和信息尽可能正确地、准确地和道德,但也引发行动或创造变化的信息或帮助决策者决定如何行动。你知道，在把事实作为事实呈现和那些事实，然后形成一个故事之间，有一条很微妙的界限。因此，这是情报界内部如此复杂的行动，这是有道理的。我认为这对所有创新者来说都是一个挑战，尤其是在那个世界里，被称为讲故事的人可能是一个非常负面的指责。

凯思莲:(00:22:10)这是一个很好的观点。我没有想过那样的方式。幸运的是，人们一直很有接受。你知道，我们喜欢解释......我们有很多关于我们使用时间和时间的故事。因此，如果人们对创新持怀疑态度，而且你知道，他们所说的创新进程，你们都知道，我们已经在经济上非常非常庞大。我们没有很多时间。我们没有很多人。为什么要拿走额外的时间和额外的资源来尝试更好地做到这一点，知道它可能会失败吗？We can point to examples of stories of, well, here’s how it took just a couple of weeks and a couple of interviews and some quick idea exploration and a couple of very quick failures to be able to come up with a solution that was significantly cheaper and faster and safer. And now we do it this way. And it’s only because of taking the risk with the innovative process, that we’re able to do things better. And that usually wins people over.

凯蒂：(00:23:19)哦,当然。

凯思莲:(00:23:19)所以我想，是的，这是你知道的，我们有价值观是为了真理和事实和专业知识。但随后也总是那个问题：这值得我们的时间吗？随着时间的推移，纳税人。对吧?所以这不是利润率的问题。这不是会议季度收入报告的问题。这是：这是我们纳税人的良好用途吗？因此，通过讲述故事，我认为我们可以帮助人们了解我们解决人类问题。这不仅仅是一种闪亮的技术问题。我认为人们对创新有两大误解，这是有趣和古怪的，创意，而不是做你的一天工作的借口。 Or that it’s very technical and the realm of science and technology and therefore opaque and so not meaningful to someone. And so…

凯蒂：[0点24分16秒]我会问你......我会问你是否在职业圈子之外的人听到你所做的事情并问道，“所以你是詹姆斯邦德电影的”M“的样子？

凯思莲:[00:24:27]有时候，有时候。或者他们会说，你喜欢“q？”这是科技。

凯蒂：(00:24:31)这是正确的。

凯思莲:(00:24:32)我喜欢吃。是的。

凯蒂：(00:24:34)你知道的，就是那个让你见识到真正敏锐，老练的人。

凯思莲:(00:24:38)是的。

凯蒂：(00:24:39)技术。

凯思莲:(00:24:41)是的,没错。这就是科学技术主管。我看到的科技总监其实就在我旁边的办公室，这很有趣。但是，我们是不同的。在我的办公室里还没有与詹姆斯·邦德(James Bond)相当的东西，这真的很遗憾。他们应该努力解决这个问题。但是，你知道，我们想要展示的是，我们不仅仅是为了好玩而开发技术。事实上，很多时候创新并不是技术。它们是过程创新。还有政策创新。 They are a physical space innovation. And they’re doing it for a purpose. And that’s to help people. A lot of our innovations are focused on our internal workforce and helping us do our jobs better as opposed to, unlike with the [unclear wording] example I gave earlier where our customers were external to the public. Mostly what we’re doing is trying to improve the business of intelligence.

凯蒂：(00:25:38)绝对的。这是不可思议的。您还确定了几个我们称为创新故事模式的东西，并且您正在使用这些模式来培训您的员工，使他们开始思考如何获得有助于改善社区的想法的支持。所以我看到你已经找到了创新者的旅程，你知道，这就是为什么我要做这件事，为什么我是做这件事的合适人选，或者为什么我的团队是合适的团队，以这种方式建立可信度或个人关系。我喜欢你提到的另一个，用户旅程。所以要想清楚这将会影响到谁并画出一幅图画，让你的利益相关者了解这将如何改变工作流程或员工的生活或将会被这项创新所触动的人的生活。你还提到了品牌的历程，以及它的制作过程。我认为那个很有趣。我们在Untold做了很多关于不同创新故事类型和模式的分析。我可能适合很多我们的品牌识别为这一类旅行故事或者创新之旅的故事,因为它似乎是那些得到最支持的说,“我们尝试或到目前为止我们已经试过。 Here are the challenges, the technical challenges or the implementation challenges or the personnel challenges that we know or we think we know we’re going to face. And here’s our plan for getting through those challenges” and the clearer you can build the stakes around those challenges and the impact of overcoming them and the more that you can create credibility for the team that’s going to get through those challenges. It just seems to create the best kind of buy-in. So I was wondering, could you tell us a little bit more about your views on other story patterns or the ones that you share inside of your storytelling training?

凯思莲:(00:27:30)我喜欢你说的那些。绝对的。当你在经历不同类型的故事时，我说，是的，叫那个，告诉那个。是的。这就像是过去几年的精彩片段。我们也——这真的取决于我们处在旅程的哪个阶段。

凯蒂：[00:27:48]是的。

凯思莲:[00:27:48]因为一开始。问题是，嘿，我们觉得有问题。我们不知道解决方案是什么。但我们需要一些资源，也许是钱。我们能去拿吗?这就是顾客挣扎的故事。你知道，我们要在这个故事中寻找一个英雄。你可以通过给一些钱而成为英雄，为之努力，然后他们就完成了一半。和英勇奋斗的人。我们有一个好的解。 We have an OK idea of what the solution is. It’s not fully baked yet, but we definitely know what we want, some wonderful future life. That’s kind of a mystery story. Like, how do you get through the sticky part? And so that’s usually around the point where we’re trying to get the organizational buy-in, figure out that bureaucratic viability for the solution. We need that trifecta. You need the user desirability. The technical feasibility. You need the bureaucratic, the organizational viability. So when we’re working on the viability, then it’s a matter of presenting it as the story of the problem and get them really invested. “Oh, yeah. We need to solve that.” And what the shared vision of the future is. “Yeah, I get it. I want to go there” and then we can talk about the solution a bit. But it’s locked up and it’s sticky. There’s a problem to be solved that is caught in this contract trap. Can you, the contract office, help us get it unstuck? And how do we sort through this? And really, the goal for that type of story is to get them in Problem-Solving mode rather than approval mode. Because if you present it as: here are the specs of the solution, if a personal comes like an infomercial and those are difficult to do, and also if they find one thing wrong with it, they’ll say no. It’s like watching an infomercial. You’re like “oh, machine washable, no thanks.” So they – it changes the role a bit. And so instead, if you presented as: this is a mystery and you need to help us unlock the mystery, then they’ll work with you. Because I think a big misconception is that people view the lawyers or the contract specialists or security relationship as adversarial. “Oh, they’re going to say no. They won’t let us have nice things,” etc. But really, we’re all on the same team. We are all being paid by the same people. We have the same mission. It’s just we need to figure out better ways to work together. And so that’s why I like to present it, as: they are part of the story with us. And it’s kind of like a “choose your own adventure” and very active. And so they can help us get to the other side. And those have been really helpful. And in fact, something that we’re working on right now, a team, is we’re interviewing those key stakeholders in the organizational viability side, so the lawyers, the security people, the contract specialists, and asking them, “how can we better tell stories? What questions would you want answered in a story?

凯蒂：(00:31:09)我爱它。是的。

凯思莲:(00:31:09)这样我们就可以培训那些和律师一起工作的人。他们希望你的故事包括以下内容。还有合同人员有什么问题，等等。显然，我们会像创新者一样，用这些指南进行测试和迭代。

凯蒂：[0点31分29秒]我认为你刚才坏了我们的播客是如此重要,我想重申它本质上就说你说一次,因为我认为它很重要:当你试图让内部的支持其他部门、其他单位,其他地方你都仍然朝着相同的任务。但是你的日常生活或者你的路线图，你知道的，重点可能会非常不同。关键是要以对话的方式定位这个机会，并尽可能让这个故事成为一个合作故事。邀请他们和你一起写故事。不要像你说的，给他们一份需求清单或者在非政府机构，这通常是，你知道的，一份推销演讲稿。对吧?你要向一个特定的群体做演讲。

凯思莲:[00:32:23]对。

凯蒂：[00:32:23]相反，让他们和你一起写技术概要。让他们和你一起写RFP。这种角色的转变本身就能创造各种各样的创新。所以我想暂停一下，因为我觉得你说的关于获得内部认同的观点非常重要，这真的是关于一起玩得好。

凯思莲:(00:32:44)绝对的。

凯蒂：(00:32:46)我喜欢你做的一切。我想回到你做的这个练习册，因为我喜欢-你之前在播客中说过这对没有受过训练的人来说是一个令人生畏的练习。我想我们所有人，你知道，我们还记得在小学早期的日子，我们学习了故事的弧线，角色的发展，高潮和解决等等。在某种程度上，它本身就能让故事看起来很基础，或者不需要评论。但当我们谈论技术信息或系统改变时，要讲出有力而清晰的故事就变得相当复杂，你知道，涉及多个参与者，并考虑不同的预算和风险。在这种情况下，情况是非常不同的。但我认为，有时故事可能会被认为不那么重要，因为我们把它与我们生活中的孩子般的教训联系在一起。但我也认为，最基本的是，它们的重要性永远不会消失。

凯思莲:(00:33:50)绝对的。

凯蒂：(00:33:52)所以我很好奇，当你在创新团队中工作的时候。什么时候你发现证据太多了，数据太多了?或者，你有没有发现一些讲故事的技巧会让观众不会贬低讲故事的人，而是把这个机会和一些没有证据的东西联系起来?如果这一切都是关于故事，你如何在故事和数据之间找到平衡，在传统的定义故事和数据之间找到平衡，在传统的定义故事和数据之间找到平衡?

凯思莲:(00:34:33)这是一个很好的问题。这总是一种平衡，对吧?多少研究才算过度研究?研究多少才算足够?我记得有一本书叫足够的研究。对。所以，这显然对所有我们的头脑的话题。因此，我们先来最低八个采访。我很认真地说，因为采访正如我所说，我们一直在思考的纳税人资源，以及我们如何能最有效地利用我们的时间。因此，我们居然不走的调查路径或焦点小组的路线。即使你可能会说，哦，那是更有效的，你可以覆盖更多的人，并得到更多的数据。为什么我们平时做采访的原因是因为我们可以让后续的问题。你可以看到人的表情，很懂感情更好，知道什么时候适合按以获取更多信息。当有人可能展示或信号的不适，我们要改写的问题，等等。因此，我们尝试做一个采访的人，即使他们不产生尽可能多的数据点，比方说，一个调查会。 And so we’ll do an initial ballpark goal of eight and see how the data shakes out from there. So if we’re starting to get a lot of really similar answers, a pattern. OK. So probably we’ve covered it. If after about eight interviews. We find that the answers are contradictory. They’re all over the place. Then we regroup and think, well, maybe we’re misunderstanding the users. Maybe there’s a wider variety of use cases or personas than we’re originally anticipating. Maybe we solved the problem wrong. And so it’s good to know that after eight interviews and not after two months of interviews, right? So we try to work really quickly and iterate. And the way we’ll capture that data is we’ll work in pairs to do the interviews. One person will be doing talking and one person will be doing the note-taking. Unlike with a lot of people in the real world, as we like to say, our techniques for doing interviews and recording data has to be a bit different. We work in secure facilities where we’re not allowed to bring our personal electronic devices. Whereas right now we’re recording this just through our phones. And we can take pictures of if you were to do a sticky note exercise and conference rooms, take pictures, record it. We can’t do that. So we have to take our notes longhand and type them up. And then when we go over the notes, we anonymized the name and in with our current projects. We’re using names from the game of “Clue” to encode the data because A) it shows to people that it’s clearly fake names. So don’t try to read too much into it. And it also gives us a fun sense of whimsy as we do it. So we have the “Clue” names and then we record all of it, go through the data and we’ll cluster things. So we like to do the Rosethorn/bud techniques, which is where you look at all of the positive things that people have to say about a certain topic. For example, we did one a couple last year about how we might improve our recruitment of people with subject matter expertise in science, STEM recruitment in the intelligence community. So we had some interviews with people who were recent hires or graduate students or potential hires and coded the information. So what’s going well, what’s not going well, those were the “thorns.” And then the “buds” are what are the areas [unclear wording]. So kind of cluster them thematically and look for patterns. And at this point, you would normally take pictures of the other sticky notes and record them all. And I just have boxes of sticky notes in my office from past projects because you don’t want to get rid of it. You always want to go back to the data, right? [Unclear wording.] And so we do the data. We might create personas based on the interviewees we’ve done. So Persona is basically a fictional amalgamation of the types of people that you interview. And so it’s a really good way to explain to people who are not present for the interviews, such as your project sponsor, who you are solving for and their needs, their fears, the capabilities they have, and you can also do a double check for any solution against the personas. Would this really help Sam? Would this really help Professor Plum? And so we have our data and we’ll do the questions. And then from there, we’ll really figure out what is our problem? What is our root problem? Right? Ask the question, “why?” Five times to really make sure we’re solving the right problem. And at that point, it is often different from the problem we were asked to solve. And if the person, if the product sponsor is not in the room at that point, we need to find them ASAP because there is nothing worse than surprising your project sponsor at the end and saying, “guess what, you were wrong. That wasn’t the problem at all, but don’t worry, we figured out the right problem, which is these other things.” They don’t like that. So it’s really important to go back and say and keep them posted on the data and what you’re learning, because if our data is showing something different from what they asked us to solve and they still want to solve the original problem, then we need to understand their needs. And what they’re trying to do is to talk to different people, that maybe we missed the first time. So that is a really, really important status check. So once we’ve deconstructed the problem, we will then do any number of techniques to generate a lot of solutions. Always go big before you go small. And so we’ll bring in creative people, we’ll transpose the problem lots of different ways to try to come up with as many solutions as possible. [Unclear wording] then find a couple of favorites and then figure out how to really quickly test and iterate on them. And for that, we are also trying to be good about documentation. And if you’ve ever seen – there’s a template, a free template, called “Strategyzer,” strategyzer cards. Or if you’ve ever graduated from elementary school and have had elementary school science, you know the scientific method. So Strategyzer cards are basically the same as the worksheet you got in fifth grade when you were learning the scientific method. It’s so accessible. It’s great. And so it’s asking you, you know, what are you trying to learn? What do you think? You know what? And how will you test it? What do you think you’ll see when this happens? For example, if we wanted to test the hypothesis that. You know, if we. And this is a complete, complete hypothetical. If we allowed people to apply to multiple IC elements at once, a common application, then applications to some of the lesser known elements would go up. And so then we might test that with people and see if that happens. And if it doesn’t happen, well, now we learned, right? So the reason why those cards are so important is it forces us in advance to think about: what are we testing, what are we looking for? What does a, you know, quote unquote success look like? And not. Because that way we’re documenting when it doesn’t work. And we can easily share that with others. Thought a common application would increase applications to this agency. It did not. Please, guys, don’t go down that road again. And if we’re right, then it also shows that we didn’t just cherry pick evidence. No P hacking. As is sometimes a problem in the science world. That really builds up credibility with people when we’re trying to explain it to them. And, you know, show your work, show the process. But how does that come out with storytelling? Right. Like, I just give you a very detailed description of the steps we take. Our audience doesn’t necessarily need to know that, but we need to have done the work so that we can choose the right elements. It’s all about picking, understanding the story that the audience needs to hear as opposed to the story that you want to tell.

凯蒂：(00:42:54)是的!是的。

凯思莲:(00:42:54)这意味着我们可能需要结合一些部分，以得到一些部分，始终保持真正的信息，而不是挑选。你知道,改变它或无论你是谁,你还做了工作,因为问题是如果你起床,你告诉你的用户和他们的斗争的故事和我们如何创建这个伟大的新事物的过程,你不喜欢它吗?他们说，你知道的，你为他们建立的分析师他们的老板怎么说?你会说，哦，我不知道。我没跟老板谈过。对吧?然后你就失去了你的可信度。所以你需要做所有的研究并且能够指出。你采访过这些人。这就是他们说的。 Or if they ask you on the fly. “Well, you know, you told me the story of the analysts, how they’ll use their tools to write their report. Well what happens to the report after that? How does it fit into the ecosystem?” And so if we are doing our jobs well, we can say, “well, we have also talked to the policymakers who will use the product. And here’s their story of how they’ll use it.” And so, you know, it’s part of the storytelling curriculum. We also do a lot of improv because it is a story. That presentation never goes off exactly as you think it will. And so you need to be ready for questions from the audience. For what about or push back or whatever and be able to respond with an equally polished answer and try to keep that storytelling still alive and not just revert back to, “well, 54 percent…” Or whatever it is.

凯蒂：(00:44:36)难以置信的是的。是的。你在那个例子中给出了很多建议，我觉得听你的过程很有帮助。当然，作为一名定性研究人员，我的心在这里飙升。这就是我的背景，你知道，收集以人为基础的研究，并试图分析和找到其中的趋势。所以，你知道，你这样做是为了引出正确的创新故事，我认为这是非常重要的。而且,你知道,我认为我们看到的主要挑战之一,我们正在与行业或政府是否创新的团队,是我们,我们喜欢……创新者收集所有这些信息和所有的数据,如你所说,我们得到接近它,你知道,这是我们的孩子,如果你愿意。这是一项充满爱的工作，我们很难提取自己，并决定什么是最重要的信息，应该分享哪些幻灯片。但要躲起来，做好准备，当有人问这个问题的时候，你知道，这个问题会让你对你得出的结论产生质疑。 So I love that. And I’m so grateful that you’ve walked us through the process. I think a lot of – I’m hopeful that listeners are taking that process into account and thinking through, you know, are you paying attention to the story as you go about doing the innovation work? I think we need more visibility for the role that story plays in the innovation process and especially for internal purposes. The way that you’re describing, I think the majority of innovation storytelling, especially after conducting 100 interviews with innovation leaders like yourself, at this point, we’re just seeing it is kind of surprising, I guess, from the outside, if you haven’t thought of it this way. But innovation, storytelling is far more critical internally to an organization, typically, than it is externally. And so, yes, it’s important that consumers or your communities see the ways in which you’re innovating and that they understand what it is that you’re doing to make your organization stronger and better. But if those projects can’t get internal buy-in and get momentum through the power of story internally, we never even get to get to that point of being external-facing. So that’s kind of a surprise finding, I think, at Untold when we first started this research question of “where does story live inside the innovation world?” More powerfully than not, I would say most people really talk about its critical importance to internal buy-in. And so I’m really grateful to hear you talk through your process and your ways of, you know, thinking through how to pull different stakeholders in, get their reactions to stories, get their feedback, and then refine the way that you tell it and deciding which data you present based on their preferences, priorities, concerns. So I think there’s so much to that. And if I were a listener, I would just go back five minutes and listen to that whole section again. I’m so grateful for the time we’ve had together, and I’d love for you to leave us with some key pieces of advice that you’d like to give to innovators as they continue to share their great ideas.

凯思莲:(00:47:54)绝对的。我给每个人的一个建议就是爱上这个问题。没有任何特解。我想举个约会的例子。对吧?首先，你需要弄清楚你是谁，你需要什么，什么能让你快乐。当你第一次约会的时候。不要马上预定婚礼场地。只是可能会感到兴奋。但也许你可以试几次。 Try meeting different people. And if it doesn’t work out, that’s OK, right? Think of it as: you’re the quirky heroine in the rom-com. And this is all part of the process. This is the point. We try multiple solutions and eventually you will have your happily ever after.

凯蒂：(00:48:40)是的。

凯思莲:(00:48:40)关键是要了解自己，欣赏自己，知道自己值得拥有这个权利。

凯蒂：(00:48:46)凯瑟琳，我喜欢这个建议。这是美妙的。谢谢你给我们留下这个比喻。它是如此之大。我认为我们都能联系到，你知道，不管是讲故事，写作还是内容创作，不管这对我们个人来说是否自然，我们都是人。因此，我们是讲故事的人。所以，找到对你有意义的东西，当你代表你正在做的工作时，做真实的自己是非常重要的。我觉得你的比喻很好地说明了这一点。

凯思莲:(00:49:16)谢谢!

凯蒂：(00:49:16)凯瑟琳，人们从哪里可以了解更多关于你和你的团队的信息?他们在网上哪里能找到你?

凯思莲:(00:49:24)要了解更多关于这个主题的信息，或者了解我在情报界和创新领域的工作，我建议你登录intelligence.gov。在dni.gov网站上有一份我的简介和采访。你可以找到电子邮件地址为更多的媒体询问。

凯蒂：(00:49:44)太棒了。Katherine，我将在我们的展示笔记中链接到您的Intelligence.gov。再一次，谢谢你这么多，让时间今天在这里，与我们交谈创新讲故事。

凯思莲:(00:49:56)谢谢你！这真的很有趣。

凯蒂：(00:49:58)感谢收听本周的节目。一定要在社交媒体上关注我们，并在对话中加入你的声音。你可以在@untoldcontent找到我们。

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*访谈不是个人或企业的认可。